[Deleuze-Guattari] Severer error concernng KundaliniYoga experiendce

Tue Sep 18 07:01:51 PDT 2007

Hello Todd,

I domn't know how much yi are aquainted with Freudian or Marxian theory at
all.
For Deleuze Guaatri the strudy of the Introduction to
the "Grundrisse",
fro "productio, consumtion, and distribution and tehir
relationisindispensable.
I don't either howmuch you are aquatained with Freudian theory.

For short, almost every thinking and feeling si bound to sonme
"forms", perception by material reality (th tree you see),
others by language, thinking by wha you have understood, almost
alwys fronm some ccoperation of a lot of peole already.

I have worked in aafactorx my own for several years,
as an electrician and also as normal worker.
I can tell you, that you are thinking and feeling a lot in this time,
als about more abstarct ans cultural things.
Also thereraltions in the factory,  whow things are organized,
how peole wirk and talk together and kike and dislike one another
and learn from one anothe or mob one another
has a lot to do wizth current social,political and psychological discussions
and knowledge.
And all the time, you are happy or not, gfeeling you body, exhaisut get
headaches or not,
you breat at work, transpire - thats all the id.

I hope that  enough for the moment, it si
also theidea of "micro-power", of how
in the daily life of peole in every sizaution
things happen -aslo rthe tramsnmisson of big "power"
and socia structues.
You know, that in th eappendix oghf the anti-oedpue there is writte´about
bas-superstructure.
Indeed, it is aqqurstion of a lot of details.

greetings Harald Wenk

-----Original Message-----
From: deleuze-guattari-bounces at lists.driftline.org
[mailto:deleuze-guattari-bounces at lists.driftline.org]On Behalf Of Todd
Conover
Sent: Dienstag, 18. September 2007 06:29
To: deleuze-guattari at lists.driftline.org
Subject: Re: [Deleuze-Guattari] Severer error concernng KundaliniYoga
experiendce

Hi Bruno & list
I am also an artist (composer) beginning to read Anti-Oedipus. It is
nice to see others on DG-listserv. ! Perhaps something DG desiring-
production concept has to do with an attempt to efface the Marxian
division of (economic, technological) Base and Superstructure
(culture)? A division that seems to imply some level of social
function common to both.

I see a similar attempt in artist Matthew Barney's Drawing Restraint
-- a product of economic/technological relations (dockworkers craft
and load a metal object filled with a gray fluid) is central to
participation in the the sailors' dining ritual. How would production
of consciousness, or the idea that one's consciousness is fully
determined by symbolic placement within a larger social body, might
have to do with Freudian id I cannot so much write on.

best wishes Todd
On Sep 17, 2007, at 9:01 PM, Todd Conover wrote:

> Hi Bruno & list
> I am also an artist (composer) beginning to read Anti-Oedipus
> Todd
> On Sep 17, 2007, at 2:15 PM, Bruno Listopad wrote:
>
>> Hi everybody,
>> My name is Bruno,
>> I am trying to venture in Deleuze and Guattari universe for my
>> artistic work but I have  no academic background. At the moment I
>> am struggling to understand  Anti-Oedipus opening: Capitalism and
>> Schizophrenia:
>>  "What a mistake to have ever said the id. Everywhere it is
>> machines--real ones, not figurative ones: machines driving other
>> machines, machines being driven by other machines, with all the
>> necessary couplings and connections."
>> What DG mean by the freudian id. within the context  of  the
>> concept of desiring -production?
>> could someone help me in this
>> Thanks
>> best regards Bruno
>>
>>> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 13:35:51 +0200> From: hwenk at web.de> To:
>>> deleuze-guattari at lists.driftline.org> Subject: [Deleuze-Guattari]
>>> Severer error concernng Kundalini Yoga experiendce> > Hello dear
>>> memembers of the list,> > in the link concerning the blind born
>>> patient without psychosis, > there is a svere restriction anad
>>> erranous description concerning the experince of> advanced
>>> kunsdalini yogis.> As you konow from standard Freud writimgs,>
>>> teh Topology : Unconciousnes, Subconciousnesss and Conciousennes>
>>> involves two translations or dirxcting of> nerve impules to two
>>> higher> concoisess connected nerne synpses circuits. > Now, the
>>> very often and commen described expereinces,> #also uhnder very
>>> hard alocohol or other drugs,> of little insexcts,anoimals,
>>> spidres,> atbest an unspecific procklindg is a not full awarenes
>>> of> the deepeste true nerve impulses as such, therfgore> ther are
>>> symbolized as tiny animals or so latest for the subconcious -
>>> concious barrier. > > Now in Yog atwioo things happen: First
>>> there are more nerveimpuklse started than unsual, also the
>>> production of some more and new neurotransmitters.> In accordabce
>>> with good old Spinoza the yogus tzhen get, with more> nerve cells
>>> working together, a "True", tactile, felling> for> the nerve
>>> impopulses thenmselsvs,like the feeling is trie> if you pinch wit
>>> afinger nail in anozther finger.> Also according to good old
>>> Spinoz , this "trie" perception> leads to the vanishing of alot
>>> of imafineary oahanartsies, like thes animals> and also of the
>>> disturabnce of normal perception of th eworld by > false
>>> interpretated nerve impulses. > > It ias not only a state of mor
>>> eknowlegdge of more consioucesness,> bur also often ther
>>> ishaoppenuing a lot in the body,> most prominetn in the
>>> production of heat.> More never impulse, more consumptionof
>>> oxygen more heat - called taps in Indian yogc philosphy. >
>>> Controlled production of heat and tapas make sthe bod yand minmd>
>>> working much better. > The yogis know what they feel and control
>>> it, > especially more nerve impuls firing of the brain than
>>> usuall.> Lilke progfessional sportsmen (and sportswomen) also
>>> have> a much better functiong body und control,but focused to
>>> the> muscle part of the body. > > As undenaiblethinking and
>>> feeling is connected to brain activity, > it is a very desirabble
>>> state of the body and mind to be "yogic". > As pointed out again
>>> and again, > the develoment or a "yogic" sports men is often
>>> interrupted,> interpretating everythinh not in th enormal average
>>> as > pathological - due to a lachk of systematic experience with
>>> these> very great potentialsa of the human body mind. > > The
>>> model is adolesemce and the puberty.> The growing of the human
>>> soul does not stop with 21 in the average -> as you hopefully has
>>> remarked by your own experience already.> Of course there are
>>> doubts if tany development hast taken place until 21 not to ask
>>> for later ages, even worse a devolpment to the better.> So the
>>> agypsts wanted to say to the greeks: You wilL always stay >
>>> childish. ... > > In order to avoid diplomatic trouble.....-> >
>>> greetings Harald Wenk > > > > > > > > > -----Ursprüngliche
>>> Nachricht-----> > Von: deleuze-guattari at lists.driftline.org> >
>>> Gesendet: 11.09.07 17:24:17> > An: <deleuze-
>>> guattari at lists.driftline.org>> > Betreff: Re: [Deleuze-Guattari]
>>> waffling, again...> > > > > > Hi there,> > > > > thanks Chris for
>>> the psychosis link-its an interesting> > > proposition-i will
>>> make an effort to find out if there is anyone> > > who
>>> expereinces psychosis who has been blind since birth. i'm> > >
>>> hoping that there is for i would not want, after years of> > >
>>> constructivism, to link psychotis to brain development (kind of>
>>> > > gives too much ground back to biological determinism) but
>>> worth> > > finding out nevertheless.> > > > In that sense,
>>> logically, schizophrenia may be a brain disease, something> >
>>> uncomfortable.> > > > > charles, the url would not work so i am
>>> still in a state of> > > ignorance ( name ruth). however, your
>>> post sounds like you have> > > been doing thoughtful work which i
>>> would like to hear elaborated> > > more should you have the
>>> time.> > > > thanx charlie P. I think once a girl named melissa
>>> mentioned me the> > connection in spanish with what's his name,
>>> Rayuela...a Paris....Cortazar.> > > > > i have a bit of a
>>> practical dillema around the role of the> > > expert.> > > > mmm>
>>> > > > > i agree with what you say but, in practice, one is often>
>>> > > in dialogue with majoritarian discourse. for example, i'm
>>> also> > > involved in a service user training initiative-
>>> basically people> > > using or who have used mental health
>>> services meet with trainee> > > clinical psychologists once a
>>> month to answer questions about> > > training concerns from the
>>> context of service user perspectives.> > > > of course..> > > > >
>>> this all ran smoothly until it came to naming the role. the
>>> group> > > felt that their function was consultative so decided
>>> on> > > consultant which was rejected on the grounds that it
>>> implied> > > considerable professional training, skill and
>>> expertise.> > > > problem is then, in that case, where do you
>>> send them to,...Next, at the> > Office!> > > > > also> > > that
>>> the term had other connotations in the nhs ( that is don't> > >
>>> step on the toes of the doctors).> > > > agree> > > > > the group
>>> replied that anyone> > > who had self managed a psychotic episode
>>> also had considerable> > > skill and profesional experience-the
>>> group was made up of a maths> > > teacher a special needs teacher
>>> an ex social worker.> > > > OKayy..> > > > > whetherthey> > > had
>>> been 'professional' or not, they considered themselves the> > >
>>> experts of their own experience-> > > > Question of naming-
>>> identifying the source, where they get "experience" fromm> > > >
>>> > there are PR consultants and> > > other kinds of consultant.
>>> the group asked why they were being> > > required to use a name
>>> (advisor)> > > > mmm> > > > > that did not fit what they were> >
>>> > doing. anyhow, the choice came down to pulling out-then the
>>> work> > > would not be done at all or raising all this stuff in
>>> the project> > > evaluation. the group decided that they take
>>> this path. so> > > wouster-you are right to be cautious-there is
>>> a lot of work to do yet.> > > > piles of work in the academy> > >
>>> > > the point of all this? i support the group in so far as they
>>> need> > > a site of enunctiation in practices that have power
>>> over them.> > > moreover, i think there still needs to be room to
>>> acknowledge> > > what people can do. however, i work in the
>>> awareness that the> > > experts of their own experience could
>>> easily become as despotic> > > as any other kind of expert.
>>> resistance is not innocent in other> > > words. i find mysel in a
>>> continual negotation between making room> > > in majoritarian
>>> languages and contesting the egocentric premises> > > of this
>>> language.> > > > phhhwww, that s hard working keeping a
>>> household.> > > > > the focus on neologisms is the other side of
>>> this problem.> > > > for the youngsters indeed, but who isntit?>
>>> > > > > psychaitry defines psychosis as lacking in insight and
>>> out of> > > touch with reality.> > > > ok, thnx Ruth, I have here
>>> this book on my desk: by Guus Labooy: "Waar Geest> > is, is
>>> Vrijheid." to me the question to write an article in MGv.> >
>>> www.Trimbos.nl.> > > > > i don't think i need to bother with the
>>> real> > > on this list but lacking in insight clearly belongs to
>>> subjective> > > interiority. there is also the whole question of
>>> reflection and,> > > again, power. it is quite ok to have
>>> exstatic expereinces if one> > > is a theologian or a philosopher
>>> but not so for most other> > > subjectivities. people that
>>> expereince psychosis frequently> > > dialogue with their voices
>>> and often has a reflective dimension> > > that is comparable to
>>> but not the same as 'sane' reflection. this> > > is important
>>> because psychoanalysis often refuses to work with> > > people
>>> that experience psychosis. however, psychosis is as much> > > an
>>> attempt to make sense out of nonsense as is it is a flight> > >
>>> from dominant sense regimes.so been doing a lot of work on> > >
>>> idioysyncratic syntaxes of exteriority. its nothing big or very>
>>> > > clever-just trying to find a way of listening responsively
>>> to> > > expereinces that don't follow recognised conventions but
>>> usually> > > have some of their own. we've been thinking of this
>>> as a kind of> > > translation (with all the problems of [power
>>> and transposition> > > that go along with this).> > > > >
>>> Sloughing one's skin.-The snake that cannot slough its skin> > >
>>> perishes. Likewise spirits which are prevented from changing> > >
>>> their opinions; they cease to be spirits (Nietzsche: Daybreak:V:
>>> 573)> > > > wku, have a nice day> > > > > > > > > >
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