[Deleuze-Guattari] The Wound (Deleuze) Badoiu

[hwenk]

Dear Julia,



unfortunately I find my efforts
concerning my  help in the interpretation of Deleuze's
complicated text without an respond.

It is a pity for all possible visitors and users
of this list, that your further work on your questions stay
hidden.

Probably you got to much else to do?

In France is a polemic political discussion in France
on Badiou,  concerning a text the Palestinian Israel conflict.
This is parallel to the publishing of a new "opus magunum" of him.

Badiou has written
has "adapted" Deluzes's philosophy
in the book "L'etre et evenement".


He is a pupil of Lacan
and was at Vincennes and Nanerre at times of Deleuze and is now at the
Sorbonne.

He is looked at one of the master philosophers in France now,
with Rivere and Balibar.




greetings Harald Wenk



-----Original Message-----
From: deleuze-guattari-bounces at lists.driftline.org
[mailto:deleuze-guattari-bounces at lists.driftline.org]On Behalf Of Harald
Wenk
Sent: Sonntag, 12. August 2007 14:16
To: deleuze-guattari at lists.driftline.org
Subject: Re: [Deleuze-Guattari] The Wound (Deleuze)


Am Sun, 12 Aug 2007 02:59:47 +0200 schrieb Julia Bale <icaesar at gmx.net>:

Hello Julia,

There maybe some misprints not corrected by
F7 - like "feather" instead of "father".

My answer concerns more than recognition.
What I meant was the neurological struggle
also of faculties (Kant) or abilities.
This is expressed in the Notion of
"Discordant unison" from Axelos,
see the text footnoted in
"Image of thought " (DR page 190 in the original and German translation).
The neurological dynamic equilibrium  disturbed by some
perception of thought,
maybe in the direction of violence,
to get it back, the neruons connected
with the faculties struggle.
The  "I" or some other
inhibitory instance may,
hinder the violent neurons to "go to the whole brain or to action".
So, the transgression at first in fantasy is
due to not good arrangement of the faculties -
cannot be kept in limits.

The recognition in "Image of thought" is twofold,
on the one hand Deleuze says,
error is boiled down to "false" recognition,
recognition being the application of
learned - "school examples".
It is dead recognition,
the image is ready,
you have only to say "right" or "right" - no learning any more.
There is no "problem" any longer combined with it.
That is not so bad for a lot of things,
all being problematic is very hard.

Descartes is referred to in "Image of thought"
as excluding the posing of problem from method,
starting with th er ready made problem - "well posed" as we say in
mathematics
on page DR 207/208 - see also footnote with Descartes there).

As solving problem is a learning,
by solving problems "not yours in your way",
you are "normalized,
creating "common sense".
In learning, is something of the existential logic shines up,
also in mathematics:
To learn a complicated theory
or to solve a complicated
problem indeed changes you,
it is  something "existential" - far away from "recognition".
This is a real problem for math students,
as in that extreme way it is not
so in sciences apart from math.
That is the reason for mathematics being not very popular.

Philosophy would like to be so, therefore Deleuze quotes
Hegel's "Phenomenology" in "Image of thought".
But, producing some truth , whatever, has
in my eyes indeed something "Apollonian",
as it has a good result  - even if restricted in solving
problems already there, including theories  "transcendent"
to the means of solution.
This the real sens, by solving the problems
the means of the solving are produced in the pupil solving it -
accommodating it thus to common thinking.
As I expressed, this goes more deep  in mathematics than elsewhere,
so it is surprising seeing Deleuze  being a fan of Riemannian differential
geometry looking
 from this side.

This has something to do with my email to Mr. hardie,
that we often learn the wrong problems,
"school problems"
"problems we must have",
but not ours.
Contrary to Deleuze my experience,
that in mathematics you learn to
pose problems, also pretty late.
But he attributes something good to geometry and especially to Riemannian
differential geometry - which I know well and like it.

Also he makes an appraisal of Spinoza's genetic method by cause and effect
without mentioning it:
Th only way to comprehend is by the production,
that is by cause and effect.
This is the way Spinoza
describes right thinking in his
"Tractatus improving human understanding" - by "genetic" definitions and
proceeding.

If you like another direction of the discussion, you should write a little
bit more.

Greetings and nice sunday.
Harald Wenk



Th violence itself ist neurological driven,
by neurotransmitters,
at most from alien, mammalian parts of the brain.




> Dr Wenk,
>
> Okay. It's just sometimes I find it hard to follow if it is not
> immediately
> clear what the words are that are being mis-typed. It doesn't matter.
> From
> your response about image of thought, do you mean that the thought that
> moves towards truth, to avoid violence, is like a Cartesian ordering and
> rational way of thinking? Is this the same as Apollonian? -- The
> Apollonian who keeps the "colossal" power of life at safe distance. It
> sounds like Descartes: looking to the self in order to see the universe
> clearly. So, going back to D&G's "image", did you mean that it's an
> avoidance of pain? If so, what kind of pain? Still, it is important here
> for
> me not to just get one meaning of one concept through the understanding
> of
> another. I am sure that all these movements are mutually dissimilar.
>
> If it is about recognition of forms, in thinking (that is, only
> recognising
> an apparently established field), then it reminds me of what Foucault was
> writing in Madness and Civilization: that in the Baroque period (if I
> remember correctly), the thing was to make transgression, death, mystery
> all
> visible, clear in the daylight. Because to keep them invisible
> (especially
> death) was too frightening, too uncontrollable. So if one orders and
> categorises their whole universe nicely, all the nasties are under the
> control of (the eye of) the rational agent at the centre of things.
>
> I have difference and repetition on loan from the library, but I've been
> too
> ill with the flu to open a book this past week. It is translated by an
> Australian, Paul Patton: I assume this is the same one you mean. And I
> am a
> teacher, not particularly fond of systems of grammar.
>
> Julia
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Deleuze-Guattari-bounces at lists.driftline.org
> [mailto:deleuze-guattari-bounces at lists.driftline.org]On Behalf Of hwenk
> Sent: Friday, 10 August 2007 22:40
> To: deleuze-guattari at lists.driftline.org
> Subject: Re: [Deleuze-Guattari] The Wound (Deleuze)
>
>
> Hello Mrs. unknown Bale,
>
> I know that already and I am doing so mostly.
> But as writing about difficult texts and problems
> consumes much efforts already and these
> emails are not thought to be published in this form,
> and this is an informal discussion group,
> also the  mails are often written late .........
>
> As far as I remember I answered your Email concerning the Deleuzian
> "Image
> of thought".
> In an normalized way this is connected to the expectation
> to some response to that or putting things further.
>
> I am interested in the knowledge or other background -
> in order to  minimize misunderstanding and uncomfortable feelings.
> Are you a teacher and so in some way interested in grammar?
>
>
> greetings Harald Wenk
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: deleuze-guattari-bounces at lists.driftline.org
> [mailto:deleuze-guattari-bounces at lists.driftline.org]On Behalf Of Julia
> Bale
> Sent: Freitag, 10. August 2007 09:22
> To: deleuze-guattari at lists.driftline.org
> Subject: Re: [Deleuze-Guattari] The Wound (Deleuze)
>
>
> Hi Dr Wenk,
>
> If you are using Outlook, I think if you press f7 you can spell check
> emails.
>
> Julia
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: deleuze-guattari-bounces at lists.driftline.org
> [mailto:deleuze-guattari-bounces at lists.driftline.org]On Behalf Of hwenk
> Sent: Friday, 10 August 2007 16:55
> To: deleuze-guattari at lists.driftline.org
> Subject: Re: [Deleuze-Guattari] The Wound (Deleuze)
>
>
> Hello mr. hardie,
>
> "to get out of the cage of mice".
> In general, people use their freedom
> without thinking or often thinking a lot
> about alternative which are to narrow.
> tHERFEORE; WE TRY TO GET HAPPY
> BY THINKNG OVERPROBLEMS
> WHICH ARE NOT REALLY OUR PROBLEMS;
> IN A FORM WHERE 2OUR2 SOLUTION
> IS ALREADY RULED OUT BY
> way the probllem is posed.
> And e do not get to seee
> wha tproblem it would be
> to thik about in what way to
> get more satiesfied.
> And the we say
> thar "I can't get no satisfaction"
> is a real, poetic song
> refelecting some subjective truth.
>
> So, if you discuss in politics some hairdo of a poltician ... that is
> a crude example.
> But how structures of "power"
> are in yourself maybe a far
> more interesting question -
> treated in the anti-oedipe.
>
> In nmy eyes, rifdind the tiur de france is a
> torture even with doping,
> torture for our "pleasure"?
> Pleasure iis one of the main themes of the anti-oedipe.
>
> greetings Harald Wenk
> -----Original Message-----
> From: deleuze-guattari-bounces at lists.driftline.org
> [mailto:deleuze-guattari-bounces at lists.driftline.org]On Behalf Of martin
> hardie
> Sent: Donnerstag, 9. August 2007 16:20
> To: deleuze-guattari at lists.driftline.org
> Subject: Re: [Deleuze-Guattari] The Wound (Deleuze)
>
>
> but why do we acre
> why do we need it
> what does it matter
> can't we answer questions from non phd's students????????????
>
>
>
> On 09/08/07, Dr. Harald Wenk <hwenk at web.de> wrote:
>>
>> Hello Mr. Rohan,
>>
>> Thank you for this information.
>> Would also have been fine to get it from Tina herself.
>>
>>
>> greetings Harld Wenk
>>
>> Am Thu, 09 Aug 2007 12:46:05 +0200 schrieb Rohan Orton
>> <rohan.orton at gmail.com>:
>>
>> > Mr Wenk,
>> >
>> >> What I meant is an inconsistency:
>> >> My dictonaries say a dissertation is a Ph.D. thesis, something
>> >> a B.A. student is not skilled for,  not seen to be skilled for.
>> >
>> > It is quite common in British Universities for an extended essay to be
>> > written as part of assessment for a BA and this is also usually
>> referred
>> > to
>> > as a dissertation. There is no need to suggest deception.
>> >
>> > R
>> >
>> > On 8/9/07, hwenk <hwenk at web.de> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hello Mr. Bale,
>> >>
>> >> in his foreword to the
>> >> american edition of "difference and repetitio",
>> >> Deleuze declared the cahpter three: "image of thought"
>> >> as the most "necessary and most concrte"
>> >> introduction to his other books, aos that
>> >> of the one with Felix Guattari.
>> >>
>> >> In a nutshell:
>> >> Pain at first, hat and love force to think, solving problems.
>> >> Ther is a part, a fram,e, a transcendal part, formed to
>> >> very intensive anfd hard exeperience which gives thes
>> >> categoreis
>> >> of the abilities of percepting, recognition and acting.
>> >> That is "transcendal empirism".
>> >> Under this viewpoint, reecogintion, ceativity, making more fine and
>> >> intrensiv
>> >> and changing the frame - cases: destroy the frame (partly) and change
>> >> the relations of the abilties, every ability is egositic in some way.
>> >>
>> >> The classical "making order out of chaos",
>> >> bring the brain chemistry an the formed
>> >> brain, by memory and categories,
>> >> "harmonic" together, so
>> >> that happiness, joy and more inner and
>> >> ability of acting, understanding and percepting
>> >> are develppoed.
>> >> This is the Appolinian way.
>> >> But the reding  of the chapter is not to dispense with.
>> >>
>> >> In some people or groups, this "subjectivations"
>> >> go "wrong", leading to hard frictions or splits,
>> >> cases mentioned by Guattari in the first chapter of
>> >> chasomosis are the reconserative islamic movements
>> >> and the repression of students in China.
>> >>
>> >> The most striking is that he sees correctly, that much more
>> >> subjectivation is there, the experience
>> >> that things can be changed by subjective grops is
>> >> very common.
>> >> The belief and experience of "eternal" or "everlasting"
>> >> social laws or circumstances fades away.
>> >>
>> >> greetings Harald Wenk
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: deleuze-guattari-bounces at lists.driftline.org
>> >> [mailto:deleuze-guattari-bounces at lists.driftline.org]On Behalf Of
>> Julia
>> >> Bale
>> >> Sent: Mittwoch, 8. August 2007 15:37
>> >> To: deleuze-guattari at lists.driftline.org
>> >> Subject: Re: [Deleuze-Guattari] The Wound (Deleuze)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> When D&G talk about 'image of thought', that is, thought that is
>> >> movement
>> >> towards truth, in an effort to avoid violence, (in other words
>> perhaps,
>> >> "defensively poised",) what is it that the threat of violence comes
>> >> from?
>> >> Is
>> >> it about disorder, or mystery - the unknown? (Guattari refers to the
>> >> disappearance of mystery in the first chapter in chaosmosis.) Do you
>> >> think
>> >> this is comparable to Appollonian/Dionysion opposition?
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: deleuze-guattari-bounces at lists.driftline.org
>> >> [mailto:deleuze-guattari-bounces at lists.driftline.org]On Behalf Of
>> martin
>> >> hardie
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, 8 August 2007 23:24
>> >> To: deleuze-guattari at lists.driftline.org
>> >> Subject: Re: [Deleuze-Guattari] The Wound (Deleuze)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> is this the tour de france mr wenk?
>> >>
>> >> why does it not fit together...because why?
>> >>
>> >> maybe miss tina should be thrown off the race and sent home to
>> denmark
>> >> .....
>> >> but i don't think mr wenk understands ....
>> >>
>> >> On 08/08/2007, hwenk <hwenk at web.de> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Hello Tina,
>> >> >
>> >> > that is a quote from your first Email,
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > > Thanks in anticipation, Tina (Cultural Studies BA student)
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > This is a quote from your second Email
>> >> >
>> >> > > This is for my dissertation.
>> >> >
>> >> > (See both below)
>> >> >
>> >> > As anyoone sees, this does not fit together.
>> >> >
>> >> > As I am more interested in truth than in
>> >> > condeming, I would be pleased if you
>> >> > would tell what is going on?
>> >> > This is also because a lot of literature afterwards.
>> >> >
>> >> > So, would you bew so kind to explain?
>> >> > It is difficult to see things not as
>> >> > gaining personal informations of me.
>> >> > As long as the intentions are hidden,
>> >> > this could hardly be sen as friendly.
>> >> >
>> >> > Curois greetings
>> >> >
>> >> > Harald Wenk
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>> >> > From: deleuze-guattari-bounces at lists.driftline.org
>> >> > [mailto:deleuze-guattari-bounces at lists.driftline.org]On Behalf Of
>> >> > fin5tr at leeds.ac.uk
>> >> > Sent: Samstag, 4. August 2007 08:44
>> >> > To: deleuze-guattari at lists.driftline.org
>> >> > Subject: Re: [Deleuze-Guattari] The Wound (Deleuze)
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Hello Gerald,
>> >> >
>> >> > Thanks very much for your comprehensive reply.
>> >> >
>> >> > This is for my dissertation. My primary theorist is Deleuze and I'm
>> >> > applying
>> >> > him
>> >> > to a piece of text by R. D. Laing (Knots).
>> >> >
>> >> > I was thinking of using the wound (as in "my wound existed before")
>> >> as a
>> >> > kind of
>> >> > primal wound of sorts. Rather like how Althusser says that our
>> >> > subjectivity
>> >> > exists before we are even born (in the Freudian sense). So we are
>> born
>> >> > into
>> >> > our
>> >> > oedipal trajectory.
>> >> >
>> >> > Anyway, perhaps I can still do that.
>> >> >
>> >> > Your email was very helpful, thank you, and gave me some avenues to
>> >> > pursue.
>> >> >
>> >> > Are you an academic? What is your interest in Deleuze?
>> >> >
>> >> > Thanks again...
>> >> >
>> >> > Much appreciated, Tina
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Quoting hwenk <hwenk at web.de> on Fri 03 Aug 2007 21:19:35 BST:
>> >> >
>> >> > > Hello Tina,
>> >> > >
>> >> > > there is a new French edition from 1996,
>> >> > > but I didn't found any translation (here in Germany) - like you,
>> >> > probably.
>> >> > > The text is the last of Deleuze being published,
>> >> > > and it is indeed very abstract.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > I don't know what you are doing,
>> >> > > but "the wound" is a reference in a the last footnote where
>> >> > > the connection between virtuality and
>> >> > > happenings(?) has been elaborated and concretised.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > In a first order approximation
>> >> > > one could see virtualities as
>> >> > > dream/perception/thinking(all together, mixed, and
>> differentiating
>> >> while
>> >> > > "living") - with emotion from the
>> >> > > conscious side. But what is happening on the object side?
>> >> > > A wound is subjective and objective (from medicine).
>> >> > > The wound has also some objective subjective reality,
>> >> > > to speak so, as for some  to have a wound is
>> >> > > in certain limits the same, or recognizable - also
>> understandable,
>> >> > > also to have a wound is do much subjective that you are
>> >> > > brought back sometimes to the
>> >> > > pure life, which is mentioned as example,
>> >> > > even if a bad guy is going to die,
>> >> > > one tries to help.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > But, as I pointed out,
>> >> > > I don't what you want.
>> >> > > Even dreaming of a wound has its objective "effects"
>> >> > > or thinking of a wound - even if you never get one.
>> >> > > I am not trying to speak ex cathedra as
>> >> > > canonical interpretation. Its my own in responding you after
>> reading
>> >> the
>> >> > > text.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > But texts so abstract as this one from Deleuze are best
>> >> > > understood to connect it
>> >> > > to from experience or
>> >> > > possible experience - what is also the theme of
>> >> > > the text itself.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > So, maybe the question: Working on Deleuze without speaking
>> French?
>> >> > > Without any loss?
>> >> > > This is for sure  possible on a B.A. level.
>> >> > > So, to summarize - I am not aware of a translation of
>> >> > > Bousquet and I  think to read
>> >> > > another book of him is not so
>> >> > > helpful in understand the text of Deleuze.
>> >> > > Maybe you look in Difference and repetition
>> >> > > or also in Duns Scot himself - keeping the wound in mind.
>> >> > > But the text of Sartre is also very important for Deleuze,
>> >> > > he quotes it in central passages in "what is philosophy".
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > But, I don't what you know or try to do.
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Greetings Harald Wenk
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > -----Original Message-----
>> >> > > From: deleuze-guattari-bounces at lists.driftline.org
>> >> > > [mailto:deleuze-guattari-bounces at lists.driftline.org]On Behalf Of
>> >> > > fin5tr at leeds.ac.uk
>> >> > > Sent: Freitag, 3. August 2007 17:45
>> >> > > To: deleuze-guattari at lists.driftline.org
>> >> > > Subject: [Deleuze-Guattari] The Wound (Deleuze)
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > In 'Immanence: A Life' Deleuze refers to Bousquet's wound and
>> cites
>> >> his
>> >> > work
>> >> > > 'Les Capitales'. Can anyone tell me if this is available in
>> English,
>> >> > please?
>> >> > > If
>> >> > > not, does anyone know which translated works of Bousquet refer
>> >> directly,
>> >> > and
>> >> > > in
>> >> > > detail, to the wound.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Also, does anyone know where Deleuze expands on this idea of the
>> >> wound,
>> >> > if
>> >> > > he
>> >> > > does at all. Or if anyone else (say, poststructuralist) does.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Thanks in anticipation, Tina (Cultural Studies BA student)
>> >> > >
>> >> > > _______________________________________________
>> >> > > List address: deleuze-guattari at driftline.org
>> >> > > Info:
>> >> >
>> http://lists.driftline.org/listinfo.cgi/deleuze-guattari-driftline.org
>> >> > > Archives: www.driftline.org
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > _______________________________________________
>> >> > > List address: deleuze-guattari at driftline.org
>> >> > > Info:
>> >> >
>> http://lists.driftline.org/listinfo.cgi/deleuze-guattari-driftline.org
>> >> > > Archives: www.driftline.org
>> >> > >
>> >> >
>> >> > _______________________________________________
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>> >> > Info:
>> >> >
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>> >> >
>> >> >
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>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
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