[D-G] sorcellerie capitaliste, democracy in Vth BC in Athens.

hwenk hwenk at web.de
Fri Oct 21 03:56:15 PDT 2005


although the idea, as you state it, seems not not be very practicable,
the an-historic impuls coming from the greek tyrannis by die chance
under free man is important.
I think, what is exciting is the possibilty of every free man
to lead the affairs of the polis (now stae).
This has as a consequence that the real rulers are very contolled by the
free man,
because everyone of them has the abiltiy to judge if it
is dangerous, good, bad or unimportant what the actual ruler(s) do.
This has been tried to be carried over by the idea of the citizien -
who is a member of the state in contrast to the bourgeois, who has money -
and the function of the public discourse, nowadays mainly in the
struggling with the media.
Now for real free man and woman, the quality of the public discours is like
a lot of good rulers at home or wherever they meet.
If this is not the case, the real rulers can do a lot uncontrolled things,
which in general
leads to a little too much acting in the sense of the bourgeois - who have
This is the classical device of critical intellectuals in democracy theory,
they are
bound to bring up the public discours to a quality for a professional
judgement of the acting of the government in the sense of the welfare of
all - or the greatest happiness of the greatest number,
as Aristotle put it.
So, in my eyes, the impuls from the greeks has been taken up, even
and theoretically.
Concerning the material base of beeing a free member of the society, there
has to be none.
As the german idealists - that are for example Hegel,  Kant, Fichte,
Schelling -
put it in their favourite tune: "Thinking is free".
This impuls has is antique root to in the philosopher slaves has home
educators of children,
as far I remember most prominent Plotin.
A philological minded intellectual cannot resist to remind on the
discipleship of
Alexander the great with Aristotle and the necessity for Aristotle himself
to leave Athen in order to avoid the fate of Socrates of being condemende
by a trial from the actial rulers in Athen.

Greetings Harald Wenk

-----Original Message-----
From: deleuze-guattari-bounces at lists.driftline.org
[mailto:deleuze-guattari-bounces at lists.driftline.org]On Behalf Of Liza
Sent: Sonntag, 16. Oktober 2005 23:13
To: deleuze-guattari at lists.driftline.org
Subject: Re: [D-G] sorcellerie capitaliste, democracy in Vth BC in

ok nobody is interested by this thread, i think it's a good thread .

i was saying: Athens elected by chance, the free men where sorted by chance,
dices were cast and somebody was elected. In Sorcellerie Capitalist Isabelle
Stengers and Philippe Pignarre are talking about "the little hands", they
call "little hands" people who give their hands to the MegaMachine DG have
discussed in Capture Apparatus. In this book the MegaMachine is called A
Sorcellerie, a bewitching operation of capture of body/soul/spirit.

Athens had free men, and slave men and migrants and women and children, were
not part of the possibly elected people. That is the Antithesis. Somebody
disagreeing with the idea of shifting from what we have now, political
parties, responsable, or people who are said to be presentable as
responsible, capable to carry the State and the Business, are elected by
vote. Each citizen as a right to elect. I say, stop this, now, as this is an
Hypocrisy, and actually it has something, it is aHypocrisy in the sense that
it is presented as the best or unique form of democracy. I propose to think
and do it in the way done at the time of Athens before the Peloponese wars.
I say: the Impossibility to intellectualise the an-historic. I affirm you
that you cannot say: it is impossible to do the way the Greeks did it. The
an-historic is an element, and it is not possible to counterargue that: In
Greece the existence of Free Men stands as a simultaneous component to the
hazard casting of electing the
 head of the State.

I challenge you to contradict this.

I think it is a better adventure for Mankind to have each person the
possibility, just as in France before 98 there was Military Service, there
should be a Civil Service for everybody up to 18 for example, who would be
deemed one day, by Hazard, to play an important role, with responsabilities,
as a State responsible. I say that it would oblige everything to be
re-evaluated, and the concept of responsibility to be recast in a different
light, and the simultaneous components of the MegaMachine in which we are
led otherwise to play the roles of "little hands", to be re-thought, or
simply thought.

I ask you to think about this idea, and to give feedback on the idea here in
this list, or by sending me private email.

Thank for your reading.


Liza Kozner <liza_kozner at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
what about sort, instead of electing among the responsibles, to elect by
sorts, hazard, like in Athens.. possibilities of such idea etc, ask me
french translation into english if interest

16 octobre 2005, par liza


. en train de lire le passage sur "seattle" et les chapîtres précédants.
dans SORCELLERIE CAPITALISTE, et j’étais arrivé à penser qu’il pourrait, le
livre disait à un moment qu’il serait triste de ne plus imaginer qu’un
politicien élu puisse élaborer sa politique et ne pas être séparé de ce qu’
il peut. .. et je voulais demander aux auteurs du livre ou aux lecteurs de
ce messages de l’idée qui vient de germer suite à cette idée, pourquoi ne
pas proposer que les élus soient tirés au sorts commen Grèce ancienne, au
lieu d’être comme maintenant ils le sont ici, choisi parmi des membres d’une
majorité de responsables. au contraire, demander à chacun de se tenir prêt
pour accomplir son service civil, si le sort tombe sur lui/elle cela
pourrait forcer quelque chose au niveau de la responsabilité, le concept de
responsabilité peut muter. aussi en passant je me disait que cela serait une
différente sorte de machine, que en tout cas comme cela se passait à
Athènes, cela témoignait d’une vie
différente, je me demandais ce que , ce que cela demanderait comme efforts
ou comme possibilité, que ce type de vote, dans l’esprit de ceux qui sont
intéressés par cela me disent ce qu’ils en pensent donc si vous voulez.


ps to webmaster : je sais pas envoyer ailleurs j ai donc laissé cet article
ici en pensant que vous le déplaceriez s’il vous gênait.

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