[Deleuze-Guattari] Severer error concernng Kundalini Yoga experiendce
brUNO
brunolistopad at hotmail.com
Wed Sep 19 15:22:38 PDT 2007
Dear Harald,
Thank you very much for all the information.
Best regards
bruno
----- Original Message -----
From: "Harald Wenk" <hwenk at web.de>
To: <deleuze-guattari at lists.driftline.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 7:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Deleuze-Guattari] Severer error concernng Kundalini Yoga
experiendce
Hello,
Also this is rather long, it may make the underatnding much faster.
You may read the article by Wolfgasng Scghäfner "Technology of the
unconcious" in german in
"Fluctlinen der Philosophie" - the following is inspired by that concernin
gthe meonmry building part.
there are examples for real machines, at first
with the muscles: a blacksmith is a nail fabricating machine, for the
nervous sytem up to give impulses to zhe muscels.
Nowadays nails are mostly fabricated by automatic machines, without
manpower.
You have also the glands as machines, producing a flux of milk by the female
breast glands,
as it is mentioned on the first page of the Anti_Oedipe. That is a milk
production machine.
The desire comes in, that the machine is put together at all and that the
machine, taking molecules
from the blood and making a lot of chemical synthesis,
tries to maintain the flux of milk.
This applies also to the flux of neurons firing in the brain,
or the production of neurotransmiters, the production
of a flux of neurotransmitters has effects on the brain itself, on your
feeling
and on the further firng of the synapses, the neural network.
Alsothe learning maybe encoded in the neurotransmitter production.
The consumption of oxygen from the blood, the neurotransmitters and other
chemicals from
the blood influence your feeleing, your intensity of feeling
and also your thinking by influencing the production of neurotransmitterrs.
As you know, there is a pure chemoelectrical incresaing of the neural
networfk by
adding firing synapse and a more slow chemical
one by the propagation of the production of neurotransmitters.
So, man is used as working machine and while working, therer are a lot
of biochemical and chemoelectrical machines working inside the brain.
The most complicatred thing to understand is the building of
the memory, which is very important for any intellectual
action and understanding.
It is also treated by Bergson in "Matiere e
et memoire", on Bergson Deluze wrote
a very popular book.
In the Anit-Oedipe it is done with the strange notion of
the "body without organs". The neurotransmiters and the electric fields of
the neurons.
release some kind of chemo electrical energy. There is a highest or
most impressing state of theos chemoelectrical "energy" or field.
This is impressed into the memory.
There is a impressing force and a plce to impress, this place is the body
without organs.
Somthing percepeting, feeling and thinking and material chemiocal or
electrical or even more at once.
So if you are percepting something,
the memory concludes what is associated with this perception,
classcial fire and smoke in a gross visula perception.
Now, through training and repetetion,
some stable associations by habits arose,
which gives logical thinking and your interpretation of the world.
The memory and the body without organs,
who is also the base surface on what actual thinking and accting is
perfornemdd is also a very intersting kind of
logical notion thinking, things "live" together on this body without
organs, even if disturbing one another without destroying it.
"It functions..."
This body is different for differnt qualities of neurotransmitters and ther
are
myridas of repetions and insribings on that body.
It is very hard to grasp and you have to think a lot on the first pages
of the Anti-Oedpe, at best you have memory, neurotransmittersa and firing
synapsis in mind. And how this is trasnlated
in pereveptions, feeleings,
thinking and interpretations.
Fo rexample, when you are learning soemthing new.
POr make somellearnin gautomatcal b yreoetion, playing tennis....
In my eyes Deleuze and Guattari where so aquainted with Lacans theory,
neurology,
psychoanalysis and Marx heory, that they lost
the feeling how hard it is to understand what they aree writing.
There are similar effects in other sciences, especially in mathematics.
This is seen by the literature on the Anti-Oedipe, where, as you see in thee
appendix,
a lot of peole obviously did not grasp at all what a "desire machine",
the most prominent is sexual desire and the actions and feelings combined
with it, should be.
The sexual desire machine is triying to produce a flux of sperma, also
mentioned at the start of the Anti-Oedipe.
To get a connection to everday life: Woman often feel that the only aim of
the
talking and behaviour and the realtion of man to her is to fullfill their
sexual desire. Mostl ythey find this so striking and obvious, that they are
astonished that the man has the illusiion his behaviour has any other reason
or motive.
This is the illusion connected to the desire machine in the man, they would
say.
This is one reason for the plausibility for the motives behind the motives,
unconcious motives - a motive to act is a desire.
"He said he came to speak about his new essay - but what did he really
wanted?"
In course of psychology, almost everyone is suspicous for a hidden motive or
desire machine.
That is the protest of behaviourism: Take actions at first what they are
obviously meant to be.
To speak about one's new essay is a task hard enough to manage.
You have to learn it sometinmes, in a rhetoricx seminar for example.
But, wit Deleuze and Guattari one can say, thers is of course the sexual
desire machine,
but there are also other desire machines, feeling wel to be understood,
emptional warmth like, feeling well by talking at all. feeling well by
acting out some nervosity.
Maybe even the sexual desire machine is not teh most important one.
There are several macchines working tiogehter, also disturbing another.
There is little neurology in the interpretations.
This may suffuce for this time, niót al l ciorrcted.
greetings Harld Wenk
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: deleuze-guattari at lists.driftline.org
> Gesendet: 17.09.07 23:15:46
> An: <deleuze-guattari at lists.driftline.org>
> Betreff: Re: [Deleuze-Guattari] Severer error concernng Kundalini Yoga
> experiendce
>
> Hi everybody,
> My name is Bruno,
> I am trying to venture in Deleuze and Guattari universe for my artistic
> work but I have no academic background. At the moment I am struggling to
> understand Anti-Oedipus opening: Capitalism and Schizophrenia:
> "What a mistake to have ever said the id. Everywhere it is machines--real
> ones, not figurative ones: machines driving other machines, machines being
> driven by other machines, with all the necessary couplings and
> connections."
> What DG mean by the freudian id. within the context of the concept of
> desiring -production?
> could someone help me in this
> Thanks
> best regards Bruno
>
> > Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 13:35:51 +0200> From: hwenk at web.de> To:
> > deleuze-guattari at lists.driftline.org> Subject: [Deleuze-Guattari]
> > Severer error concernng Kundalini Yoga experiendce> > Hello dear
> > memembers of the list,> > in the link concerning the blind born patient
> > without psychosis, > there is a svere restriction anad erranous
> > description concerning the experince of> advanced kunsdalini yogis.> As
> > you konow from standard Freud writimgs,> teh Topology : Unconciousnes,
> > Subconciousnesss and Conciousennes> involves two translations or
> > dirxcting of> nerve impules to two higher> concoisess connected nerne
> > synpses circuits. > Now, the very often and commen described
> > expereinces,> #also uhnder very hard alocohol or other drugs,> of little
> > insexcts,anoimals, spidres,> atbest an unspecific procklindg is a not
> > full awarenes of> the deepeste true nerve impulses as such, therfgore>
> > ther are symbolized as tiny animals or so latest for the subconcious -
> > concious barrier. > > Now in Yog atwioo things happen: First there are
> > more nerveimpuklse started than unsual, also the production of some more
> > and new neurotransmitters.> In accordabce with good old Spinoza the
> > yogus tzhen get, with more> nerve cells working together, a "True",
> > tactile, felling> for> the nerve impopulses thenmselsvs,like the feeling
> > is trie> if you pinch wit afinger nail in anozther finger.> Also
> > according to good old Spinoz , this "trie" perception> leads to the
> > vanishing of alot of imafineary oahanartsies, like thes animals> and
> > also of the disturabnce of normal perception of th eworld by > false
> > interpretated nerve impulses. > > It ias not only a state of mor
> > eknowlegdge of more consioucesness,> bur also often ther ishaoppenuing a
> > lot in the body,> most prominetn in the production of heat.> More never
> > impulse, more consumptionof oxygen more heat - called taps in Indian
> > yogc philosphy. > Controlled production of heat and tapas make sthe bod
> > yand minmd> working much better. > The yogis know what they feel and
> > control it, > especially more nerve impuls firing of the brain than
> > usuall.> Lilke progfessional sportsmen (and sportswomen) also have> a
> > much better functiong body und control,but focused to the> muscle part
> > of the body. > > As undenaiblethinking and feeling is connected to brain
> > activity, > it is a very desirabble state of the body and mind to be
> > "yogic". > As pointed out again and again, > the develoment or a "yogic"
> > sports men is often interrupted,> interpretating everythinh not in th
> > enormal average as > pathological - due to a lachk of systematic
> > experience with these> very great potentialsa of the human body mind. >
> > > The model is adolesemce and the puberty.> The growing of the human
> > soul does not stop with 21 in the average -> as you hopefully has
> > remarked by your own experience already.> Of course there are doubts if
> > tany development hast taken place until 21 not to ask for later ages,
> > even worse a devolpment to the better.> So the agypsts wanted to say to
> > the greeks: You wilL always stay > childish. ... > > In order to avoid
> > diplomatic trouble.....-> > greetings Harald Wenk > > > > > > > >
> > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----> > Von:
> > deleuze-guattari at lists.driftline.org> > Gesendet: 11.09.07 17:24:17> >
> > An: <deleuze-guattari at lists.driftline.org>> > Betreff: Re:
> > [Deleuze-Guattari] waffling, again...> > > > > > Hi there,> > > > >
> > thanks Chris for the psychosis link-its an interesting> > >
> > proposition-i will make an effort to find out if there is anyone> > >
> > who expereinces psychosis who has been blind since birth. i'm> > >
> > hoping that there is for i would not want, after years of> > >
> > constructivism, to link psychotis to brain development (kind of> > >
> > gives too much ground back to biological determinism) but worth> > >
> > finding out nevertheless.> > > > In that sense, logically, schizophrenia
> > may be a brain disease, something> > uncomfortable.> > > > > charles,
> > the url would not work so i am still in a state of> > > ignorance ( name
> > ruth). however, your post sounds like you have> > > been doing
> > thoughtful work which i would like to hear elaborated> > > more should
> > you have the time.> > > > thanx charlie P. I think once a girl named
> > melissa mentioned me the> > connection in spanish with what's his name,
> > Rayuela...a Paris....Cortazar.> > > > > i have a bit of a practical
> > dillema around the role of the> > > expert.> > > > mmm> > > > > i agree
> > with what you say but, in practice, one is often> > > in dialogue with
> > majoritarian discourse. for example, i'm also> > > involved in a service
> > user training initiative-basically people> > > using or who have used
> > mental health services meet with trainee> > > clinical psychologists
> > once a month to answer questions about> > > training concerns from the
> > context of service user perspectives.> > > > of course..> > > > > this
> > all ran smoothly until it came to naming the role. the group> > > felt
> > that their function was consultative so decided on> > > consultant which
> > was rejected on the grounds that it implied> > > considerable
> > professional training, skill and expertise.> > > > problem is then, in
> > that case, where do you send them to,...Next, at the> > Office!> > > > >
> > also> > > that the term had other connotations in the nhs ( that is
> > don't> > > step on the toes of the doctors).> > > > agree> > > > > the
> > group replied that anyone> > > who had self managed a psychotic episode
> > also had considerable> > > skill and profesional experience-the group
> > was made up of a maths> > > teacher a special needs teacher an ex social
> > worker.> > > > OKayy..> > > > > whetherthey> > > had been 'professional'
> > or not, they considered themselves the> > > experts of their own
> > experience-> > > > Question of naming-identifying the source, where they
> > get "experience" fromm> > > > > there are PR consultants and> > > other
> > kinds of consultant. the group asked why they were being> > > required
> > to use a name (advisor)> > > > mmm> > > > > that did not fit what they
> > were> > > doing. anyhow, the choice came down to pulling out-then the
> > work> > > would not be done at all or raising all this stuff in the
> > project> > > evaluation. the group decided that they take this path. so>
> > > > wouster-you are right to be cautious-there is a lot of work to do
> > yet.> > > > piles of work in the academy> > > > > the point of all this?
> > i support the group in so far as they need> > > a site of enunctiation
> > in practices that have power over them.> > > moreover, i think there
> > still needs to be room to acknowledge> > > what people can do. however,
> > i work in the awareness that the> > > experts of their own experience
> > could easily become as despotic> > > as any other kind of expert.
> > resistance is not innocent in other> > > words. i find mysel in a
> > continual negotation between making room> > > in majoritarian languages
> > and contesting the egocentric premises> > > of this language.> > > >
> > phhhwww, that s hard working keeping a household.> > > > > the focus on
> > neologisms is the other side of this problem.> > > > for the youngsters
> > indeed, but who isntit?> > > > > psychaitry defines psychosis as lacking
> > in insight and out of> > > touch with reality.> > > > ok, thnx Ruth, I
> > have here this book on my desk: by Guus Labooy: "Waar Geest> > is, is
> > Vrijheid." to me the question to write an article in MGv.> >
> > www.Trimbos.nl.> > > > > i don't think i need to bother with the real> >
> > > on this list but lacking in insight clearly belongs to subjective> > >
> > interiority. there is also the whole question of reflection and,> > >
> > again, power. it is quite ok to have exstatic expereinces if one> > > is
> > a theologian or a philosopher but not so for most other> > >
> > subjectivities. people that expereince psychosis frequently> > >
> > dialogue with their voices and often has a reflective dimension> > >
> > that is comparable to but not the same as 'sane' reflection. this> > >
> > is important because psychoanalysis often refuses to work with> > >
> > people that experience psychosis. however, psychosis is as much> > > an
> > attempt to make sense out of nonsense as is it is a flight> > > from
> > dominant sense regimes.so been doing a lot of work on> > >
> > idioysyncratic syntaxes of exteriority. its nothing big or very> > >
> > clever-just trying to find a way of listening responsively to> > >
> > expereinces that don't follow recognised conventions but usually> > >
> > have some of their own. we've been thinking of this as a kind of> > >
> > translation (with all the problems of [power and transposition> > > that
> > go along with this).> > > > > Sloughing one's skin.-The snake that
> > cannot slough its skin> > > perishes. Likewise spirits which are
> > prevented from changing> > > their opinions; they cease to be spirits
> > (Nietzsche: Daybreak:V:573)> > > > wku, have a nice day> > > > > > > > >
> > > _______________________________________________> > List address:
> > deleuze-guattari at driftline.org> > Info:
> > http://lists.driftline.org/listinfo.cgi/deleuze-guattari-driftline.org>
> > > Archives: www.driftline.org> > > > >
> > _______________________________________________________________________>
> > Jetzt neu! Schützen Sie Ihren PC mit McAfee und WEB.DE. 3 Monate>
> > kostenlos testen. http://www.pc-sicherheit.web.de/startseite/?mc=022220>
> > > _______________________________________________> List address:
> > deleuze-guattari at driftline.org> Info:
> > http://lists.driftline.org/listinfo.cgi/deleuze-guattari-driftline.org>
> > Archives: www.driftline.org
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get the new Windows Live Messenger!
> http://get.live.com/messenger/overview
> _______________________________________________
> List address: deleuze-guattari at driftline.org
> Info:
> http://lists.driftline.org/listinfo.cgi/deleuze-guattari-driftline.org
> Archives: www.driftline.org
>
______________________________________________________________________________
Jetzt neu! Im riesigen WEB.DE Club SmartDrive Dateien freigeben und mit
Freunden teilen!
http://www.freemail.web.de/club/smartdrive_ttc.htm/?mc=021134
_______________________________________________
List address: deleuze-guattari at driftline.org
Info: http://lists.driftline.org/listinfo.cgi/deleuze-guattari-driftline.org
Archives: www.driftline.org
More information about the Deleuze-Guattari
mailing list