[D-G] mona has

Tue Jan 18 23:08:48 PST 2005

I think we must remember that Deleuze was a sort of noble.  That he  
himself had the time to become so complex.
One assumes that others do too.  But this is not the case.  Most have  
no time for sinking themselves in the DG world.
We must realize that doing so is the "noble" was of becoming in the  
world.  A sort of sacrifice is involved.  But this very sacrifice is  
the investment of desire leading to the true destiny of the artist.

On Jan 18, 2005, at 3:21 PM, James Depew wrote:

> I am not sure that understanding is the goal.  Or that there is a goal
> at all, for that matter.  Deleuze and Guattari's background led them
> to *express* something in a particular form.  It seems to me that they
> tried their best to show how much the form can vary, from artists to
> scientists to perverts and philosophers.  Life is there, they all say,
> how do we find it?  A field of forces that takes on unlimited forms.
> Absolutely, the writing is extremely difficult.  But the possibility
> of connection is there.  Once you start, you can't stop.  Or, more
> accurately, you have always been doing it.  I don't know, however, if
> conversing about it can work.  You express yourself, I express myself.
>  And maybe this is your point.  In order to avoid a kind of confusion
> over what is being expressed, one has to take the time to attend,
> intensely, to what is being expressed.  And more than that, why it is
> being expressed, and how...
> That means investing alot of time and energy, just like reading D&G.
> Except, are we really going to do that for each other and for
> ourselves.  Are we really going to take that much time to make sense
> of what appears to be "the same old string of semicoherent slippages"?
>
>
> On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 21:47:16 +0200, Dr. Harald Wenk <hwenk at web.de>  
> wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> in my experience, reading Deleuze and Gusattari is more than hard,
>> because the needed backround is vast.
>> To be honest, such as you are writing in this group, I doubt
>> that there is a lot of real understanding - which in my eyes is more  
>> due
>> to the unneceassarily complicated presentation of D&G, which, as it is
>> tested by its seminars,
>> Deleuze could do much better, clearer and understandable.
>> The main point is in create a very complicated new code, or a lot of
>> concepts,
>> which are in no obvious relations with the other, also very  
>> complicated and
>> elaborated concepts in Philosophy - if you are so kind to have a look  
>> at
>> Husserl
>> or Heidegger or original Kasnt or Hegel oe Schelling - even Spinoza is
>> original
>> not easy to grasp, what had led to a lot of misinterpretations.
>> Now, one can ask, is it worthwhile?
>> It would be concerning the schizophrenics.
>> Physics, as you know, has really become great, as it left with  
>> Galilieo and
>> Newton everyday experience - which has been code in arestotelian  
>> physics.
>> The first law of Newton, that a moving body stays moving in a  
>> straight line
>> with unaltered velocity is noot everdy, this is Aristotle, where is  
>> to be
>> a mover for keeping the movement, otherwiese it will stop sooner  
>> (mostly)
>> or later.
>> Now Quantum Physics and the the theory of relativity are based on
>> experiments and mathematical theories, which are both far away from  
>> everday
>> experience (the Michelson Morley experiment is not everday, similar  
>> with
>> Plancks thermodynamical considerations of the radiation of black  
>> bodies
>> leading to his quantum hypothsis).
>> This had led to the for yoe all well known state, that modern physics
>> is not understable for non specialist - or did anyone not studied in
>> physics
>> or mathematics really understand the popular writings of Hawking for
>> example - and that is not
>> in first regard due to Hawking?
>>
>> But, to come back to D&G, in the theories of mind and thinking
>> especially philosophers are not to bring about not to
>> start from everday thinking - what do I say - speaking or writing
>> behaviour of normal people - as for example Heidegger in zthe preface  
>> of
>> "Time and Being".
>> This reminds strongly on Hegels "The way to truth is not to go in
>> housegoat".
>>  From the viewpoint of exploring the human mind it would be of
>> much interest to give sophisticated interpretaion of schizophrenic
>> experiences.
>> As you all know,
>>   Freud has elaborated his theories mainly the experience with  
>> neurotics
>> (with an overrepresentation of "hysteric" women).
>> His tackling of psychosis canot be seriously be spoken of as  
>> satisfying.
>> This one of the starting points of D&G in "Anti-Oedipus".
>> This book is, as the title and the interviews around show,
>> more of critical value.
>> I think, there a few people who have read this book, who didn't ask
>> themselves -
>> as a question of character more or less in despair - what the hell
>> a "machine of desire" should be.
>> This a main thing. If you mention to a professional philosopher or
>> psychatrist
>> the name of D&G t
>> they will mostly show, that they didn't read or understand it.
>> So what should a poor psychotic patient do with this?.
>>
>> And that doesen't work.
>>
>> Things in this area are complicated enough and the tendency to
>> bring it back to normal live - "This illnes doesen't really exist" -
>> "Ok, sometimes they dont't think at all,
>>   sometimes they cannot controll their thoughts,
>> sometimes they cannot stop thinking anyway - but do not we all have
>> some times, where we have such experiences - so, it is quite normal,
>> only the frequency
>> is a little bit unusuall."
>>
>> D&G broke down almost every bridge to the
>> rest of scientific discours and that in  very
>> hard to understand way - affording a lot of
>> non standard background -
>> so that there is no real influence and
>> working further on their grounds.
>> But the theme of schizophrenia or psychosis
>> or non everday experience in the human mind
>> as a field of rersearch for philosophy or
>> new original psychology is almost blocked by them.
>> This is not more than regrettable, this is a catastrophe.
>> To speak as a chess player, they have made the worst out of
>> this variant of thinking and publishing.
>>
>> To calm a little bit down. In "Chaosmose" of Guattari you can find,  
>> if you
>> are used
>> to the slang, a more understable presentation.
>>
>> Greetings
>>
>> Am Tue, 18 Jan 2005 07:30:25 +0000 (GMT) schrieb  
>> verlainelefou at yahoo.com
>> <verlainelefou at yahoo.com>:
>>
>>>
>>> Dearest Forest in the east is the priestof repression sounds like she
>>> got yer number and its like finding the
>>>
>>> voice in deleuze sans guattari c'est n'est pas possible.
>>>
>>> Its all a creation and a becomings.
>>>
>>> Dada
>>>
>>> So this is the second deleuze-guattari list that I have joined just
>>> intime to see it fall apart?  Not enough for a pattern...not yet
>>> atleast.  Does anyone have a point?  I have had poems sent to my
>>> inbox,which are interesting and could stimulate discussion; I have  
>>> had
>>> someincoherent free-association pass my way, which also could
>>> beinteresting; besides that, mostly banter, oh, and someone asking
>>> foretexts.  Do I have this straight?  People are criticizing someone
>>> forasking for texts?  Under the pretext that it is some sort
>>> ofhierarchically driven authority loving captialist request?   
>>> What????
>>> Am I missing something?  (quite possible since I have only  
>>> justarrived)
>>> Is it: promote creative conceptualisation but let's not readthe books
>>> that inspired that idea because they have come to representthe
>>> functioning of an overcoding regime?  Those of you criticizing:you  
>>> have
>>> read Deleuze and Guattari, right?  Or did the ideas manifestin your  
>>> head
>>> spontaneously?Now that would be
>>>  intersting...foris
>>>
>>>
>>> all  my words are on parole
>>> http://fictionsofdeleuzeandguattari.blogspot.com/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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Ms. Sylvie Ruelle
http://home.earthlink.net/~sylvieruelle
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