[D-G] more capitalist than the capitalists, more socialist than the socialists

Dr. Harald Wenk hwenk at web.de
Tue Feb 22 06:13:44 PST 2005


you may not belive it, but intellectuals, especially philosophers and  
mathematicians, normally have the desire of understanding and thinking.  
Doubtless Deleuze himself was of that kind - and me too.
This is early expressed in the beginning of Aristotles "Metaphysic".
It also the background of Spinozas third kind of  knowledge, called  
intuition, connected with
highest degrees oh lust.
Russel referred to it in his book about happiness.
But it is very difficult to enjoy the pleasure of knowledge,
if with knowledge is bound to a lot of other things, like economical,  
or personal power.
Therefore through history, where there have always been intellectuals,
the stream of thinking was often canalized, blocked or destroyed.
Therefore some kind of economical wealth is necessary, to reduce the fears,
which are strongest if it gets existential.
It is also necessary to avoid the directing of the powers of the people
in struggle against one another.
There the starting point of Deleuze and Guatttari was, the everything is
seen under the viewpoint of lack and unfullfield needs.
This was the justification for the struggle in life, for ressourses
are limited.
Now with the real machines and degree of automazation, sitting at a  
computer the meaning of
contemporary technology can not be so difficult to grasp,
Deleuze and Guattari mean, we can start thinking from overflow and wealth.
Then you dont do because you are forced to, but because you like (or  
If the people are materially supplied, they have little difficulties to  
a practice of desire. The historical leisure classes have brought about  
the whole set of
classical arts.
It is really not so easy, to live friendly a plolitic of desire,
if most people around you think, they must struggle - for a position,
or "surplus of value" or whatever.
What makes thinking and understanding very attractive, is, that the
pleasure increases, as it is shared.
This was also classical expressed by Spinoza.


Harald Wenk

Am Mon, 21 Feb 2005 15:55:56 -0800 schrieb Sylvie Ruelle  
<sylvieruelle at earthlink.net>:

> or as the stoics have said "you say a carriage and a carriage has come  
> out of your mouth"
> in Emile Brehier's "history of philosophy"
> On Feb 21, 2005, at 2:19 PM, Chris Chapman wrote:
>> Nice, please check out 'The Way of All Flesh'. Butler brings the  
>> ethological
>> vision into direct focus as he aligns the force of the earth with the  
>> force
>> of choice and interpretation. The story is about five or six  
>> generations of
>> a pastoral English family, beginning in the 15C through to early 20C.  
>> The
>> elder male's name is always Ernest Pontifex. 'The Pontifex' as it comes  
>> to
>> be called, reflects on itself and the unchanging path of its  
>> trans-historic
>> life, in spite of the history of genetic and environmental factors.  
>> (Maybe
>> you shouldn't read it. It's kinda' repetitive...)
>> I think Harald asked me about Culture and why I think it's dangerous to
>> appoint 'all' to its dicta? This is a short answer and in some manner
>> includes my idea about technology over which we may or may not agree.
>> "It is widely felt that these words of psychiatry and psycho-analysis
>> somehow fail to express what one 'really means'. But it is a form of
>> self-deception to suppose that one can say one thing and think another.
>>      It will be convenient, therefore, to start by looking at some of  
>> the
>> words in use. The thought is the language, as Wittgenstein has put it. A
>> technical vocabulary is merely a language within a language. A  
>> consideration
>> of this technical vocabulary will be at the same time an attempt to  
>> discover
>> the reality which the words disclose or conceal." (19 'The Divided  
>> Self',
>> R.D. Laing)
>> Sincerity of utterance isn't compromised by gizmos, which is what I  
>> think
>> you mean, Harald, by 'technology'. When I think of technology it's in
>> perhaps a special sense - I think of the machine which is a model for  
>> human
>> organization, lovingly parodied by Kafka. In short technology is the  
>> bureau,
>> neither organic in the sense that it proceeds by continuity or  
>> mechanical in
>> its contiguity, but the heterodyning of each such that a binary system  
>> may
>> be produced but no single agent is essential to its procedure. In a real
>> bureaucracy there is no boss, her office is 'as much at the end of the  
>> hall
>> as it is on the top of the ladder'.
>> A gizmo's ecstasy is produced by the how it effects to produce
>> instantaneity, 'it does not partake of phenomenality', is how I think TJ
>> Clark puts it, he may have been quoting de Man. This ecstasy of the  
>> gizmo
>> can only mimic the effect of a group-decision which disembodies  
>> language,
>> empties it into an apparatus of signs. Gizmos certainly do help affect  
>> the
>> tyranny of bureau-technology, 'the psychiatrist rebelled when I pulled  
>> out a
>> tape-recorder for our session.'
>> Speaking of mimicry, has anyone read about Povinelli's experiments with
>> apes? Apparently the same bundle of neurons that fire when an object is
>> recognized also fire when that object is desired. Apparently s/r chains
>> doesn't fracture into modes.
>> When we make Culture the miracle from which reality flows we lose the
>> language for the words, metaphors for signs. No one is denying that  
>> signs
>> are becoming immaterial, it's metaphors that have body.
>> Stopping for my tea,
>> Chris .
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: deleuze-guattari-driftline.org-bounces at lists.driftline.org
>> [mailto:deleuze-guattari-driftline.org-bounces at lists.driftline.org] On
>> Behalf Of Sylvie Ruelle
>> Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 11:33 AM
>> To: deleuze-guattari-driftline.org at lists.driftline.org
>> Subject: Re: [D-G] Things said and things unsaid
>> When I see people being for example "anti-bush" i say ok, he stands for
>> something they do not like... but what do they like?
>> the mass media is exhausted and one is no longer to get any ideas from
>> it anymore. (excuse me if i am wrong in any way in what i am trying to
>> say, being "american")
>> so one does a "corretage" (sp?) and goes to the archives and books...
>> thus one might read deleuze and guattari (economic thinking...
>> capitalism and schizophrenia).
>> what you say here reminds me very much of a book i read a long time ago
>> called "Erewhon" by Samuel Butler... where the machines take over in
>> the future.
>> What is scary is all these people not being ever able to catch up in
>> anyway financially (Kafka images).  I am originally from Los Angeles
>> and it is very clear there that more and more and more people are going
>> into poverty because of many complicated factors.  There simply are
>> exhausted physically, the wages do not pay the bills, the city is
>> terribly overcrowded, and the jobs are not enough, and to top it off
>> everyone "migrates" there... so from your ideas I sort of see a race
>> going on with different areas of the world competing for the upper hand
>> financially and the key being in technology... But what kind of
>> technology?  and i think it was said a higher technology...  better
>> technology.
>> It is scary to think of the world as forces, regardless of human
>> beings.  For the earth does not know what it is, i think someone said
>> (D+G?)... for it is alive.
>> On Feb 21, 2005, at 11:05 AM, Dr. Harald Wenk wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>> I think that is a very good objection.
>>> The main thing that has changed, thatr it is no longer crucial to be
>>> "anti". The generation of 68 wasinst the establishment and suppression
>>> in any form.
>>> My generation, which is more that of 78, tried a little to build up
>>> some alternative ways of living, substituting families by communities,
>>> non autorative education and non-hirarchical organisation of work.
>>> This has led to a own left wing scene, with the obstacle that it was
>>> apart
>>> from the majority of normal people. Thes people were also interested
>>> in overcoming the difficulties of family life and hirarchic work.
>>> But as the left liked to critize the things in such a way that only a
>>> change of system, e.g. the destroying of capitalism, is able to bring
>>> freedom,
>>> the communication, in a emphazic sense, broke down.
>>> Especially the attitude of making the majority feling guilty as  their
>>> wealth
>>> was said to relay on the explotation of the third and fourth world,
>>> has been
>>> deseastrous in this respect.
>>> If you look, the main profit in the western countries
>>> is earned with indusrtrial and postindustrial (media, software) goods.
>>> So  think this economically utterly nonsense, the wealth is a effect
>>> of higher
>>> productitvity based on higher technology.
>>> If anyone remembers, the original critic of Marx goes, that capitalism
>>> is a bondage for productivity. This is indeed the case, but the critic
>>> was
>>> often, that the development of technology goes too fast.
>>> I dont if you imagine what kind of freedom, first of work,
>>> automatization brings.
>>> I my eyes, and also in the eyes of the economy, a lot of paid work
>>> today is more or less
>>> superflous. Now as people need income, we got a problem of
>>> unemployment, which is a expression of wealth.
>>> Now this wealth goes in zthe totally wrong direction,
>>> as it sharpens the concurrence among the people, who want to be
>>> employed.
>>> This is also thge case for very educated people.
>>> It is a effect of technological pprogress, that more and more
>>> qulified work becomes superflous.
>>> Another effect of the high productivity is that human work is
>>> exorbitant expensive compared with industrial produced goods.
>>> So there is a strong urge to avoid it as a cost factor.
>>> In short, the economical "empire of freedom" has grown,
>>> but most people do not participate adequately.
>>> In this situation it is in my eyes necessary to develop
>>> a economical thinking, especially concerning the distribution
>>> of money, which on one hand encourages technological
>>> develpopment and on the other hand let a lot of people profit of
>>> the spare time gained by the higher productivity of the machines.
>>> Thats economics.
>>> On the other hand i don't see what cultural interest
>>> are for the majority, to suppress something cultural worhwhile.
>>> The poorness of mass media is mainly due to the exhaustion of the
>>> public,
>>> having no real time and habit to think about things and develop goood
>>> habits.
>>> In short, thinking in suppression is not the main thing anymore,
>>> perhaps it is time again
>>> to think of solutions for the majority, incliding oneselft, of people.
>>> Concerning the undevelopped countrys, it is necessary, as tghe
>>> industroal take off got a new phase,
>>> to do this with high tech, by mas production not so expensive, which
>>> is ecological effectiv.
>>> Harald Wenk
>>> Am Mon, 21 Feb 2005 09:08:39 -0800 schrieb sid littlefield
>>> <falsedeity at lycos.com>:
>>>> To clear some confusion and ask another question:
>>>> My original post, that started a bit action, was not a condemnation
>>>> of all poetry or creative posts to this list, nor was it an attempt
>>>> to maintain the "original identity" of this list. It was a particular
>>>> reaction to "bad poetry." The fact that it has gotten such a response
>>>> from certain members (some even calling for my removal) strikes me as
>>>> strange since I did not mention a specific entity that should
>>>> question their own posts.  This unconscious reaction seems to me to
>>>> verify my original post. So now that that is cleared up, I have this
>>>> question:
>>>> For a poilitics of the left to not only continue to exist (which it
>>>> seems to barely be doing at this point) but became viable once again
>>>> it seems that we should re-think the conditions that we find
>>>> ourselves within today, and how these conditions differ significantly
>>>> from the time of the 60's, a time when most of the philosophers that
>>>> we are drawn to are writing and/or beginning to formulate a thought,
>>>> or series of thoughts. Is idenity, the signifying language system,
>>>> and so one, truly what (to use a sort of out of fashion term)
>>>> oppresses us and, more importantly, the third-, forth- world? I am
>>>> thinking of this in terms of D & G's use of and understanding of
>>>> Marx.  Can we not understand Capital today, at the beginning of the
>>>> 21st century, as already opperating on a level of
>>>> non-identity/a-signification? Yes, capital must always
>>>> reterritorialize (the revolution of the means of production feeds the
>>>> desire that capitalism has promised to fulfill) but what if it no
>>>> longer opperates under the signs of identity?
>>>> So this is my question:
>>>> What has changed since the May '68 in terms of our conditions for
>>>> political thought and action?
>>>> sid
>>>> "Speed is the elegance of thought, which mocks stupidity, heavy and
>>>> slow. Intellegence thinks and says the unexpected; it moves with the
>>>> fly.  A fool is defined by predictability."   Michel Serres
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>> Ms. Sylvie Ruelle
>> http://home.earthlink.net/~sylvieruelle
>> rw_artette_lc at yahoo.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> List address: deleuze-guattari at driftline.org
>> Info:  
>> http://lists.driftline.org/listinfo.cgi/deleuze-guattari-driftline.org
>> Archives: www.driftline.org
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>> Info:  
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>> Archives: www.driftline.org
> Ms. Sylvie Ruelle
> http://home.earthlink.net/~sylvieruelle
> rw_artette_lc at yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> List address: deleuze-guattari at driftline.org
> Info:  
> http://lists.driftline.org/listinfo.cgi/deleuze-guattari-driftline.org
> Archives: www.driftline.org

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